As I am coming towards the end of my Easter holidays - only one week left now - I am thinking about the things that I haven't crossed off my to-do list yet. Revision and the dissertation seem to be going steady; not too slow, not too fast either. With my dissertation deadline only a few weeks away now, I imagine that I will be concentrating my efforts on it, just to make sure that it is of the highest standard possible.
So now, I am turning my attention to considering what I will be doing in September and beyond. In my to-do list, I raised the question: LPC? BVC? LLM?
As I am considering what to do in September, I can safely cross LLM off my list. LLM applications for, I think, all universities needed to have been submitted right at the beginning of this year. This is not to say that I won't be doing an LLM in the future - just not in the near future. Ideally, this would have been the best option for two reasons. I am interested in studying for an LLM and it perhaps would have been advantageous to do it hot-on-the-heels of my undergraduate course. Secondly, and more importantly, it would have provided an extra year in which to plan ahead and consider which career route I wanted to take.
Well I am still very much interested in a career at the Bar and from what I can tell, I can still submit an application for entry onto the BVC in September through the pooling option. The deadline for applying through the pooling system is mid-July. Before that though, I need to have joined an Inn. I have been looking at the course content of the BVC and it seems far more appreciable than the LPC.
Speaking of the LPC, I have gotten offers from some providers to commence the LPC in September. I still have time - enough time, I think - to decide whether its really what I want to do before the offers get withdrawn.
So in all, a rather unsatisfactory position. I've said right now that I want to consider, as best as possible, whether pursuing a career at the Bar is for me but I don't think that is going to be possible over these holidays. I thought there were two important considerations that I still needed to consider. Firstly, and most importantly, my final degree classification. Secondly, my mini-pupillage experience to be completed over the Summer. That is not the case though, as the dates of my mini-pupillage are after the final pooling deadline for admission onto the BVC.
Accordingly, at least for the purposes of a 2008 application, the most important thing that I have to go on - on whether the Bar is really for me - is my degree classification. Now, my thoughts on this are a bit more finalised. From what I can tell, academic grades are an important part of selection for pupillages etc. A high 2.I or a 1st overall might therefore swing me in favour of applying for the BVC. A mid 2.I or a low 2.I might prevent me from doing so.
All of the above reasoning is done through thinking in the short-term and perhaps this is wrong. What I mean is, right now, I am not thinking about my chances of securing pupillage which is what I imagine most people applying for the BVC are doing. My real current concern is that I won't enjoy the LPC and if I was to do it I'd continuously be looking back and thinking: should I have done the BVC instead? I have looked at the course content for both and I have to say the BVC interests me so much more. I'd really like the opportunity to find out just how good I am at advocacy, negotiation and writing etc.
Whist the deadline for admission onto the BVC might still be a while away, I guess its preferable to submit the application as soon as possible because it is the 'pooling' period through which I will now be applying. I actually can't understand the reason why places have not been filled up already - did that many applicants in the first round decide not to enrol on the BVC?
Anyway, I would be very interested in hearing any thoughts and ideas anyone may have regarding my position. Especially if someone has spotted a mistake in what I am saying!
9 comments:
Hi Lackie,
It sounds as if you have a great deal to think about. Perhaps, if you are in a place where you really can't make up your mind what you should do next, why not just take a year out and seek some legally related work? This will not only stand you in good stead for any professional course you may choose to undertake, but will also help you redress some of your student debt, assuming of course that you have one to begin with!
I believe there is a good post on Simon Myerson's website with regard to the value and importance of an LLM - you may want to take a read since it will likely be of more help to you than I can provide. If you are very interested in an LLM, do you think you would have it in you to complete it by distance learning, or on a part time basis? Just a thought.
You can indeed offer a late submission for a place on the BVC; I would suggest that you go for this only if you are on a 2:1; though many providers will accept a 2:2, many chambers will not progress applications for pupillage on the latter classification; it is perhaps on such a classification that an LLM and a strong CV may just tip the balance.
Since you already have LPC offers, another suggestion might be to become a Solicitor Advocate with higher rights, the wig, gown and all the other shennanigans that go with the title Barrister. After a while, and should you so choose it is easy then to transfer to the Bar ( I may be wrong but I think the process takes 5 years plus or minus a 6 month pupillage)
If you are hell bent on the bar, choose your provider carefully, since you are shelling out a lot of money for your professional education.
Choice of Inn is a personal rather than a practical thing I am a Middle Temple Girlie, myself mostly because of its associations with music and with Dickens, to say nothing of the fact that it offers all of its students a scholarship interview, though, if you join now the application deadine has passed and you will have to fund the BVC yourself.
I'm sorry I cant be of any more help,and have probably given you sio much to think about that you now have a headache, but I hope you find it useful.
I wouldn't base a Bar/Solicitor decision on degree classification as such a major factor. As we all saw from Delancy-Brown, high results mean sfa when it comes to getting a job if you're an arrogant ****.
It's only one part of a CV - and whilst a Desmond might cause a problem, I think the other things on a CV are much more important.
Throwing a spanner into the works - with the growing role of Solicitor Advocates, you may still be able to do a lot of the barrister things you think you'll enjoy as a solicitor.
It's certainly something I'm strongly considering, being able to stand up and argue with people - but getting a guaranteed pay packet at the end of it.
Advocacy and legal writing are taught on the LPC too, presumably not in as much detail, so all would not be lost from going down that route.
Reading your post though, I get the feeling that you're persuading yourself to take the BVC?
Don't forget though, at the end of the day, you can always convert between disciplines at a later date!
Law Minx,
Thanks for the very informative post.
A year out doing some legally related work doesn't sound like a very attractive prospect to me. Whilst I am currently in a bit of a pickle, I do have enough time to make a decision, don't I?
Whilst an LLM might be helpful with regards to my career prospects, its not the primary reason that I will be doing one. I've read about their value and importance (and I will look at Simon Myerson QC's blawg on this again) and to to be honest I don't think that it is very much. It can't hurt though and there are some courses that I am very interested in.
Thanks for confirming that I can offer late submission onto the BVC! Do you happen to know how competitive it is at this later stage. I don't understand why all places haven't been allocated after the first round of applications - why did so many people not accept places when offered or were fewer offered to begin with?
Becoming a Solicitor-Advocate is something that I have come across but haven't really researched that fully yet. I will do so.
I have looked at BVC providers and I am going with BPP as my first preference, good choice?
Thanks for highlighting the benefits of choosing Middle Temple. It sounds great.
I think I am able to fund the BVC myself. Not having a scholarship interview, whilst annoying, isn't going to be preventative.
Asp,
Thanks for your comment.
I think degree classification is important; especially if you are a barrister wannabe. Whilst a First class degree in Law is not a prerequisite, from what I have learnt, it does help quite substantially. A 2.II (which I am not expecting!) and I wouldn't bother applying - it may still be possible, but its always going to be an upwards battle. Yes, Nicholarse was arrogant and a lot of other things but he also had a strong academic background, didn't he? A first in his law degree; distinction on his Masters degree; and outstanding on his BVC. So even though he was unsuccessful before Sir Alan Sugar because he was arrogant; he was still successful in securing pupillage and I am sure that his academic results helped.
I'm going to try and research Solicitor Advocates as I mentioned above. At the moment, I know of them only by name, not much about what their role is.
Re: whether I am persuading myself to go down the BVC route. Yes, I probably am; but that's not unusual, I often fight over all the important decisions that I need to make and demonstrate continued indecision. I often end up making rash decisions too - like I might well do on this biggy. However, I am in no doubt that I want to do the BVC rather than the LPC. I've looked at the different courses and I have made a preference. Yes, I am more undecided about pursuing a pupillage; but that's like everybody I think, I'm just frightened of the success rates. This is where my final degree classification will be important - it will help make that decision for me. It won't be the only factor - especially if its a good 2.I or even if its a 1st because lots of applicants have that too I am guessing.
Your final point about converting between the two routes at a later date is something I have read about too. As I understand it, the QLTT exists to convert from the BVC to the LPC; but what about from the LPC to tbe BVC?
Hey LL, I do not envy you. I remember being in this position at the beginning of my 3rd year at uni, when I couldn't decide whether to apply for bvc, lpc, or both!
Here's some BVC stats from the Bar Council for 2006-2007:
http://www.barcouncil.org.uk/trainingandeducation/careers/statistics/
3227 Applied
1932 Got on the course
1425 Passed the course
There's also some detailed stats on the number of pupillages. There's only about 23 in Manchester we are told (with 100+ people on the BVC at MMU).
By the time I came to decide, however, I had already done 8 mini-pupillages and a 3-month solicitor placement. Having kind of decided what area of practice I liked (Chancery), it helped me to undertake my minis effectively I suppose... Anyway, I loved what I saw - pride, integrity, independence and this family-like atmosphere in some Chambers (oh, and LOADS of work). I'm probably over-romanticising the career at the Bar, but those were the things that inspired me then.
You mentioned earlier that you like employment law - I've only visited an employment tribunal once on a mini, so I'm not sure about the extent of the solicitors involvement per se. I say that because matrimonial solicitors perform a great deal of advocacy themselves without the need to become a solicitor-advocate (solicitors have full rights of audience in the County Courts and High Court hearings in chambers, i.e. in the judge's room). Also, in fields like Commercial Property the solicitors hardly ever instruct counsel... I think.
Having worked at 3 solicitor firms since receiving a BVC offer, I noticed that they are heavily involved with the procedural side of things - filling out forms, serving them on everyone, dealing with clients and costs... they also do a lot of audiotapes with instructions for their PAs, because they are too busy to type letters themselves! I think the barristers have to do their own paperwork, so that's something to consider.
The working hours also differ a bit. I can only talk about provincial mid-size firms of solicitors and provincial barrister chambers. The solicitors, where I worked, would rarely stay in the office past 5pm. Most of the partners would leave at 4 to play golf!
Barristers, on the other hand, tend to work longer hours, just because it's up to them to finish the work - they can't just pass in onto a trainee. I remember talking to someone who just got her tenancy, who said that she often stays in chambers until 10pm!
My information about London solicitor firms is hearsay, so I don't know how reliable it is. Anyway, my friend's friend got a training contract with one of the magic circle firms. Apparently, this guy has to come to work on weekends very often, and they have charts of who worked more hours every month (obviously, the more - the better). :o
There are, of course, alternative legally-related careers for both LPC and BVC graduates...
I'm sorry for such a long comment, but I that hope some of this info will help you in making your choice.
Hi Android. Thanks for the informative insight, most helpful.
So when you were in this position, was it your experience of the Bar (through mini-pupillages etc) that confirmed your desire to do the BVC? For you personally, how important was having good grades on your degree? Did you end up applying for both the LPC and the BVC then?
Thanks for those Bar Council stats. I hope I don't I end up being one of the unfortunate few who applied too late and didn't manage to enrol on the course! I think I'm just going to get on with the forms though. There's nothing stopping me from applying now.
Thanks for the insight into the differences between the nature of a solicitor's work and a barrister's work. Very helpful. I am attracted by the nature of the work at the Bar and in particular that there is a lot of it available. In fact, this is one of the main reasons for my preference in being a barrister. I feel that as a barrister, I will be challenged more to produce my best and it will allow me to accurately gauge my capabilities. I feel that this is not really possible as a solicitor in a large firm because you have such a small part of a transaction to deal with. This is not to mention that it seems to me that a lot of a solicitor's work is very monotonous.
I ended up applying just for the BVC and I don't regret it at all, even though I still haven't secured a pupillage!
When I was deciding between the two courses, I thought to myself that I really didn't want to do the LPC as a 'back up plan' and then regret it, so I didn't apply. Like you, I found the solicitors' work a bit monotonous. I even had thoughts about applying for the BVC next year if I wasn't successful at first. There are loads of things you can do in a 'year out' to boost your CV.
I got a 2:1, but it wasn't 69.9% overall! Grades are not everything (I keep telling myself that). I don't know how true this story is, but we were told that there was this guy at our provider with a 3rd, who had to ask for permission from the Bar Council to do the BVC. He got on the course eventually, got an 'Outstanding' and secured a pupillage!
This is a serious decision. I just think that if you don't like something, it's going to bother you forever! I would think that it was easier to convert from BVC to LPC, because based on discussions with LPC students, our study of Civil and Criminal litigation and advocacy is more comprehensive. It all depends on whether you are willing to invest a ridiculous amount of money into the BVC, if you're not 100% sure.
I do hope that you get on the BVC this year should you decide to apply for it. People were dropping out on the enrolment at my institution!! However, if you don't get on it this year, but you firmly decide on the Bar route after your mini, why do anything else? Just do something amazing in your spare year to make yourself stand out. :)
Hi Lackie,
You do indeed have time to make a decision, but not as much time as you'd probably like, I'm afraid, purely because of a tight timetable - i.e exams/ written assessments/disertations/CV building and writing/visits to the careers office etc. Sorry to be a Job's comforter on that front.
I am none too sure, to be honest how competetive the late entry system to the BVC is; I can't imagine that its THAT bad, but it would seem to have individuals such as yourself in mind. I wouldn't worry too much about who takes up places and who doesn't - as Andro says its surprising how many people drop out during the first week! Concentrate, for the time bieng on obtaining your place. Despite the figures suggesting otherwise, I dont think its as hard a course to get on as the Bar Council would have you believe - I've certainly never spoken with anyone who's failed to obtain a place.
BPP is a sensible choice; It seems to have a good rep, but try and google a website which provides a review of its services just to be on the safe side( I'm sorry that I dont have such a link to hand/in mind).
As I've said, choice of Inn is a personal and occaisionaly arbitrary thing; if you're in London and have the time ( who am I kidding here!?) go along and visit them; they are pretty much all in the same vicinty and all are keen on and welcoming of students who may join them ( Bear in mind that it costs £85 quid to join one of these august institutions, so choose carefully!)Again, if you are based in London for the BVC try and get involved with the student activities of your chosen Inn - mooting/debating/running things - it will do yur CV, and your list of Bar related contacts no end of good!!
Unfortunately I won't be able to visit the inns individually and so am going to have to make my decision based on their websites and personal testimonies like from yourself.
Same goes for choosing where to do the BVC - I won't be able to attend open days etc.
I don't think its too much of a problem to be honest; just not ideal.
I have gotten the ball rolling with filling my applications. Unfortunately I seem to have misplaced/lost my GCSE English Language certificate and so have had to send off for a replacement. Very annoying but its something that you have to include when applying to your chosen inn.
In the meantime though, I have registered with the on-line BVC application service and have started answering the long-answer questions on there.
Post a Comment